| PS1RV | Ag5 | m | (Stan, age 62, driving instructor) unspecified |
| FM1PSUNK (respondent W0000) | X | u | (Unknown speaker, age unknown) other |
| FM1PSUGP (respondent W000M) | X | u | (Group of unknown speakers, age unknown) other |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[1] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[2] Good afternoon. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[3] The purpose of this afternoon's session is basically we're we're sort of looking at it from two pronged attacked. [4] It's from the point of view of the risk management for the council's insurance, because our new policy we are virtually self-insuring. [5] We have a ten thousand pound excess, so we're ... we're looking at er trying to minimize those risks. [6] But also more importantly we're looking at it from er an employee health and safety point of view because we feel ... it's just as important to have our employees aware that their [...] [speaker moves away from microphone] [...] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[7] Yes. [8] Can you just put it on there for me? [9] Thanks very much. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[10] the environment in the workplace or AIDS awareness or any of those kind of health and safety issues. [11] It's a very very informal session and will welcome any comments that |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[12] Thanks. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[13] you have erm and he will also impart as much of his knowledge as he can in the two hours to you. [14] So ... please listen and enjoy. [15] And I shall even join in on this one. [16] [laugh] Thank you very much. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[17] Thank you for that er introduction Catherine. [18] About the what's that, the about the umpteenth time. [19] Er as you say now you're going to |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[20] [...] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[21] going to ha have a listen to what it's all about. [22] So hopefully |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[23] Yes. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[24] ... er She she keeps saying it's terribly interesting, I hope she doesn't deny that at the end of the two hours . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[25] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[26] Good afternoon. [27] Erm what I'd like to er start off with is to emphasize why you're here and erm ... the fact that I'm not going to patronize you as a driver. [28] You're all competent sensible drivers I'm sure, and erm no doubt that you feel quite happy with the manner in which you perform your functions on the road. [29] But what I'd like you to do is to go with me during the next couple of hours, have an open mind and erm if I say something which is in an in any way provocative, question me if you want to, cos that's what we're here for, to communicate. [30] Anything you want to argue with er and discuss, please do. [31] Not just the content of erm the two hours but anything else which you feel is pertinent to you as a group or indeed you as an individual. [32] If you want an answer, please ask. [33] [break in recording] [...] I shall be able to give to you. [34] If I if I don't know the answer I'll find out in the interim period and let you know at the end of the session. [35] But hopefully I shall know the answer. [36] The erm the main constituents of the afternoon revolve around ... [sighing] the [] awareness of erm you on the road and what you individually can do about other road users. [37] How do you individually view other road users? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[38] Idiots. [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[39] Who Yes Lyndsey? [40] Idiots? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[41] Yeah. [42] I often think [...] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[43] Great. [44] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[45] [...] they'll always do the un unpredictable. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[46] In fact some of the them are screaming idiots aren't they? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[47] Mhm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[48] You know they're they're not just basic idiots but they really do something erm which can be quite fraught, and er there's no doubt everyone of you have been in a situation created by ... [sigh] another road user. [49] Not of course created by any one of you. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[50] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[51] No? [52] Or w w shall we say that may be said with a bit of a tongue in cheek? [53] Do you think that you are you can be sort of erm ... put behind the eight ball? [54] You know you you m you might be able be a little bit blameworthy in some instances? [55] Yes? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[56] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[57] Yes. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[58] Yeah, I think that's true isn't it? [59] And I think what we've got to think about is what our general attitude is to ourselves and to our other road users that are around us. [60] How do you er how do you therefore generate the knowledge before you start getting the attitude? [61] Because the attitude always comes in when you start getting more experienced don't you? [62] I mean you d you don't really have an attitude problem when you first start to drive do you? [63] Other than apprehension and fear. [64] But erm generally you start getting the attitude problem when you think, Oh I don't need all this old rubbish the instructor taught me do I? [65] Cos I'm now a competent driver cos I've passed my test. [66] Haven't we? [67] Or do we? [68] When did you last look at ... a book ... about driving? [69] ... Come on. [70] Come on when did you last look at a book about driving? [71] Anybody read one recently? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[72] No. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[73] Only on France. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[74] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[75] When did you last look at the Highway Code? ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) | [...] |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[76] About five years ago. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[77] You only passed your test five years ago, ten years ago. [78] Erm now driving is probably the most dangerous thing you do, unless you bunjy jump or abseil or do other daft Well they're maybe not daft things to people who do them, but certainly they're potentially dangerous. [79] But erm if you do those sort of things somebody teaches you. [80] And if you're a er golfer er you might go to the professional and say you know I'm miss I'm hooking, you know, can you show me how I ... can't do this? [81] Or if you're a bridge player you might go and ask advice or read books but what do you do about your driving? [82] Not a lot. [83] When did you last read the Highway Code? [84] A long time ago. [85] Do you remember that one? ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[86] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[87] Mm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[88] Do you? [89] You do? [90] Six P that cost. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[91] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[92] Erm ... that's a long time that one came out. [93] That one ... seventy five P, fifty P, sixty P, and er last but not least ... that one. [94] Have you seen that one? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[95] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[96] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[97] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[98] No says Sue. [99] Good God! [...] have a look at it? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[100] [...] are pretty ancient. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[101] No I'm not. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[102] [laughing] Thank you. [] [laugh] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[103] [laugh] Ninety nine pence. [104] ... It's getting it's getting it up a bit isn't it? [105] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[106] Right. [107] Right [laughing] Right. [] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[108] Bit tight. [109] Bit tight. [110] So ... it's er ... just out this one, or it came out the end of er last year, December, January time. [111] And er it's a good ninety nine P's worth. [112] Now as I say to every ... one of you er on these courses, do when you go through W H Smith pick one up and have a look at it. [113] Now you won't be able to read it whilst you're in there and save ninety nine P, |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[114] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[115] but it's not really too much to ask is it? [116] To [...] a quid. [117] Eh? [118] You can even put the penny in the poor box at the same time. [119] But it's it's really a good quid's worth of l of er knowledge. [120] And I don't think you really know it do you? [121] Do you? ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[122] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[123] Some Pardon? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[124] Yeah a fair bit of it. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[125] Oh right , |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[126] Aha. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[127] right, yeah. [laugh] |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[128] Some of it. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[129] [laughing] He'll pick on you now. [] |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[130] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[131] A volunteer's better than any [laughing] than a pressed man isn't it [] ? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[132] [...] stopping distances . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[133] [laughing] Yeah. [] |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) | [...] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[134] Well. [135] I'll t |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[136] [...] stopping distances. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[137] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[138] I |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[139] [...] your windscreen [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[140] I'll tell you what we're going to do then. [141] Er only a bit of fun this really, it's not a It it can be a serious exercise but it's not meant to put you under any pressure. [142] But I'm going to give you a little piece of paper and on the piece of paper it's got ten questions. [143] And all I want you to do is ring the answers. [144] Li like a Ballard Test where you just put the little ring round the A B or C or D. [145] And er then at the end of it we'll talk it through. [146] Now it's not really for my information. [147] It doesn't really worry me whether you you know it or not. [148] [...] I'll be very impressed if one of you gets a hundred percent. [149] But I want you to realize whether you know it or not. [150] So when you go [slight break in recording] that door you'll have a little bit more knowledge than when you came in that door. [151] And it's not only revolving around this of course, it's about the other things that we're going to stimulate your interest with as we go through the afternoon. [152] So ... would you all volunteer to er have a go at that with me then ? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[153] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[154] And er all I want you to do is just ring the answers. [155] Only takes about five minutes. [156] We'll quickly go through erm those, again that'll take another five minutes or so, and er I'll be surprised if you don't find it ... quite interesting. [157] ... Okay. [158] ... Have you all got a pen? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[159] No. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) | [...] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[160] Cor! |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[161] He told you to bring a pen John. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[162] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) | [tut] |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[163] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[164] I'll find you one. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[165] Thank you. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[166] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[167] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[168] Oh okay. [169] Two there. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[170] [...] [laugh] . ... [noise - background] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[171] You want one as well? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[172] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[173] Sorry. [174] Beg your pardon. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[175] [laugh] . ... [noise - background] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[176] There you are Lyndsey. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[177] Thank you. ... |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[178] Okay. [179] About five minutes then. [break in recording] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[180] Okay. [181] [cough] . Well I think we're all more or less there by now. [182] Erm what I'll ask Sophie to do if she's still going on with it, she'll be a little bit late, just put a couple of plugs in your ears while I give the answer out. [183] Cos you've got a very honest face. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[184] [laugh] . [185] Thank you. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[186] [laughing] So j just [] you just carry on with it. [187] As I say the main idea is that when we get the answers to these er you you know regardless of what you're actually telling me you know whether you them right or not. [188] You can mark your own papers. [189] So er you can cheat if you like, it won't make any difference. [190] ... You'll notice that they're geared to certain things on the on the question paper,th the the constituents really of what we're going to talk about this afternoon, which will revolve mainly around ... thinking about things that you're doing, I E good observation and concentration, those two going hand in hand, always organizing yourself in relation to a good separation distance, so you can equate what safety means to you. [191] Time equals safety. [192] You can think about a disciplined approach to problems, whatever it is, whether it's a roundabout or wh however you name a particular hazard. [193] In other words a good mirror signal manoeuvre routine, however you apply it but in a particular order, which gives a discipline, so that you're keeping yourselves out of the problems that other people may give you if you allow them to. [194] So that's what how this is geared. [195] So having said that if you'd like to get ready I'll give you the answer to all the questions. [196] And erm if you ringed it just tick the answer as appropriate. [197] Hopefully they're are the same as the ring, if not tick the other one. [198] Question one is A. [199] Question two is D, ... question three is A, ... four C, ... five B. [200] ... Question six erm [tut] ... A should be [reading] Lane markings and divisions [] , that's the white, B for [reading] Green exit, ... entry slip roads [] , Red C for the hard shoulder and D the amber central reserve. [201] ... Number seven. [202] You should have ringed the following. [203] A, B and D. [204] I'll repeat that one. [205] Ring the following, A, B and D. [206] Question eight ... D. [207] Question nine ... A. [208] And question ten, you should have the word [reading] Preventable [] and words to the effect Should not have been in that position and not have assumed that the other driver was going to do what he eventually did do. [209] Words to that effect. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[210] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[211] Lyndsey got it right obviously. [212] Great guffaws at the back there. [213] ... Right, are there any points then that you want to raise on that? [214] Or do you want to sit there and ruminate a bit while ... while you have a look see what you've got? ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[215] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[216] Are there any queries on e any of the particular questions? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[217] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[218] Mm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[219] Any you find ambiguous or er doubtful? [220] ... How about |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[221] [...] the roundabout question's very interesting. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[222] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[223] Erm ... erm ... a lot of people don't seem to know the rules at roundabouts and ... you cannot |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[224] You're right, they don't. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[225] assume anything at a roundabout |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[226] No. [227] No. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[228] and you have to be so careful now erm ... and y you get in the the l the larger roundabouts and [...] more and more lanes. [229] And I d I don't think a lot of people actually know the rules when they get into a roundabout and ... [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[230] No. [231] Let's go through them then shall we? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[232] Yeah. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[233] Yeah, let's just run through what we feel are appropriate. [234] Er quite right, people don't know, and if they do know they don't care some of them. [235] Er they think it's old old hat to give signals. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[236] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[237] Because they know what they're doing. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[238] Mm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[239] Why should they bother about what other people want to do? [240] And by vir If they get through as quickly as possible they don't need signals anyway. [241] Cos peop |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[242] Mm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[243] people are not really gonna benefit, they're going so quick. [244] The the main thing you've got to think about with roundabouts is that Where does it where does it all start? [245] Does it start on the roundabout? [246] Or does it start on the approach side of the roundabout? [247] Where c |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[248] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[249] Y Sure. [250] Where can you gain the information on the approach side if you can't see the roundabout? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[251] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[252] The road markings. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[253] Road markings. [254] And the? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[255] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[256] [...] sign. [257] How often do people though erm glean that information? [258] Do they take it in? [259] Do they inwardly digest it? [260] Do they observe and concentrate? [261] If the roundabout suggests that the road you're on is a fairly wide road and the road you're exiting on is a fairly narrow road it will normally indicate you're going from probably a duel carriageway, which you know you're on if you're already on it, but the road you're entering might not be. [262] So therefore your position And remember that the cardinal thing with all driving is think correct position, think correct speed, think correct gear. [263] Position, speed, gear. [264] So all the time you're thinking that. [265] So the first thing you're always gonna think about is position. [266] So as you come up to a roundabout, you're thinking of the exit or exits. [267] It might be straightforward like that one. [268] It might be an awkward one. [269] Some of them have got arms going off all over the place. [270] So if you're if it's a strange area to you it's up to you to organize yourself. [271] Don't try and do it at too fast a speed. [272] Give yourself time. [273] Because if you don't give yourself time nobody else will. [274] If you go rushing in and you're in a thirty and you're doing forty five they'll all rush in with you. [275] And you're past the sign you're into the roundabout and you're not quite sure what you do so what do you do? [276] Take a chance? [277] Or do you keep going round until [laughing] you've found the the right exit that you want [] ? [278] And that's not so daft as it seems you know. [279] If you get into a roundabout and you m and you make a mistake, what's the best thing to do? [280] Take a late manoeuvre and dive in? [281] Or go round and another look at it? [282] Go round, have another look at it. [283] Don't be ever be frightened to do that. [284] Never make a rash move in conflicting traffic situations because you'll find yourself ... Er they might gesticulate at you, they might blow their horn at you, they might say some very rude words that you've never heard before. [285] Or you could have accident or an incident. [286] So always give yourself time. [287] So as you come up on the approach side, think position. [288] Now ... if we're going to exit on that side, where's the best position that you would normally be in? [289] Position one or position two? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[290] Two. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[291] Two. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[292] One. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[293] Anybody ... Who said one? [294] ... Okay? [295] So ... you're going to follow through in position one, and erm if the situation allows it and there's not much traffic on the roundabout and you can see that the exit side is the same width as the entry side, is there anything wrong in following round in that position? [296] If you've got an exit like that? [297] As opposed to following round like that? [298] Is there anything wrong in it? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[299] [...] . ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[300] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[301] No. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[302] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[303] [...] that the ... third exit you should be in that position. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[304] The preferable position, I've got to say is the position ... two, unless the circumstances allow you to be in position one. [305] Say for example er you come up and you might see that erm there is a parked vehicle there. [306] There might be a lot of traffic sort of nosing out there or there might be a congestion there for some reason. [307] If you think the position there is better well of course you can take that position. [308] The Highway Code |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[309] Mm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[310] suggests that you take the easiest and safest route through the roundabout. [311] But what you've got to be very careful about is that if you go into a roundabout ... in that position and you get somebody in that position who is also going the same way and there's a pinch point there, that's the danger. [312] Who has right of way ... at that point? [313] Who has right of way on a roundabout? [314] ... So |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[315] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[316] You see we've got here a divergence of opinion immediately haven't we? [317] Now imagine then that we're all going round a roundabout. [318] Are we all of the same opinion? [319] ... We're not are we? [320] Cos So therefore if there's any element of doubt keep yourself into position two. [321] There are circumstances where you would adopt position one. [322] If it's safe to go through in that position and then you can see that the exit side is clear, okay, there's nothing wrong with that. [323] But the the erm query that's put down on that little paper there suggested that there was a problem, and a person who was coming in with you erm followed right the way round. [324] And you often see them do that don't you? [325] ... [door knock] ... Yeah, sure. [326] You often see them do that. [327] So be aware of the possibility of anybody cutting across the lane that you're already in. [328] And the only way of making sure they don't unless it's completely clear is to be in a a safe positive lane on your way through the roundabout. [329] You might get erm Yeah I'll be with you in a sec. [330] You might other roundabouts where they've got satellite roundabouts. [331] Er and and those they're even more critical. [332] They work very very well as long as you take your time and you're always in the right position, and anticipate ... who's gonna come through. [333] Yes? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[334] [...] er position two is always for tur for taking the first turning off the ... |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[335] No. [336] ... No. [337] It's er It it is for that. [338] Yes. [339] You're right, I mean you would obviously be in that position if you were going to turn left, but if you're If you're going to go down there by all means, but it's safer if y Say you're you're n car number two behind car number one in position two and he's inc signalling left. [340] Well alright he's gonna turn left, er just pause let him clear and then follow the way t follow the way through. [341] So you've got to have a little bit of patience in relation to what other road users may do. [342] He may even change his mind mightn't he? [343] They often do don't they? [344] They're signalling Oh I don't want to go that way I want the next one. [345] So if y if you're manoeuvring round him and he suddenly changes his mind we're compounding what he is actually doing, by getting assuming that he's gonna do the right thing. [346] So if you work on the presumption then that that position is the preferable one, bearing in mind that you know what you're doing but you don't know what other people are doing. [347] ... Any other points on that? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[348] Can you just talk about indicators on roundabouts? [349] Cos that frustrates me, when I'm waiting to go onto a roundabout and I don't know where the other c I can't really read where the other cars are ... going . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[350] No. [351] Because ... very very often people when They may not be sure themselves might they? [352] You see you can't read into their minds. [353] They might be total strangers and they think Where? [354] Oh there's the there's the one I want to go. [355] They've probably not read the sign, or they might not give an indicator at all. [356] So al don't ever take anything for granted. [357] Even when we're talking about the person who has right of way on a roundabout. [358] Now who normally has right of way on a roundabout? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[359] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[360] So you immediately all said the person on the right. [361] You were all quite comfortable with that. [362] Have you ever gone onto a roundabout being the person on the right, and somebody's come out [smacking sound] straight in front of you? [363] Yes? [364] So it doesn't always work does it? [365] See we kn we know but does everybody else know? [366] You're on a motorway. [367] You're on the main part of the carriageway, ... and coming in on the left there is this traffic coming down a slip road to join you. [368] Who has right of way? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[369] People on the motorway. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[370] ... People on the motorway. [371] Now we feel that that's correct. [372] Have you ever been on a motorway when somebody has pushed their way in front of you and caused you inconvenience, made you brake? [373] I'm sure you have. [374] We all have haven't we? [375] So you cannot take it for granted. [376] You can work on a presumption, a prebonderance of probabilities or whatever, but I mean what you cannot do is take it that it's absolutely fact that that is going to happen. [377] So always work out in your mind that nobody has right of way in those circumstances. [378] If you keep that in your mind you won't get yourself drawn in on a f false premise that you must be okay. [379] Very often you will be. [380] But you don't always judge purely on that. [381] You look at the vehicle, you look at the driver, you look at the attitude of the vehicle. [382] What's its speed? [383] What's its position? [384] That is, if you're concentrating and observing, which is one of the cardinal things I've already mentioned. ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[385] Erm ... [...] Cathy's gone home. [386] Er [...] she won't be coming back this afternoon. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[387] Oh right. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[388] Okay? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[389] Okay. [390] Thank you very much indeed. [391] ... So we've got to the situation then where erm we are making sure that nobody is gonna put us in a position whereby they can cause us problems. [392] And if you work on that presumption, and I'm not suggesting you creep around frightened of your own shadow going at a slow speed, just wor working with deliberation and making sure you move through the situation competently, but don't take anything for granted. [393] Now any other points on the er ... on the paper? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[394] Stan, just st still on the question of roundabouts [...] and the vexed question of mini-roundabouts, you know these dots in the middle of the the the of junctions. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[395] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[396] Erm and you see people frequently charging across the middle or even ... to the right-hand side of them because they don't believe that you know that that they have to you know er be observed and gone round and erm whatever. [397] Erm they're the they're there for a purpose and their size is there for a purpose in terms of er of the constrictions of the other road er sizing or whatever, and obviously huge vehicles who just can't possibly manoeuvre without going over. [398] I mean one assumes that's why the Highway Authority put them there at that size. [399] What's the actual legal position about ... incursion onto that centre spot? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[400] Mm. [401] Well you'll normally find Ian that those erm roundabouts are put at points where there is there's a known problem in relation to access from from minor |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[402] Yeah. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[403] roads onto major roads, and it's a cheap and easy way for [laughing] local authorities |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[404] Mm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[405] to segregate traffic [] . [406] And also of course i you can't always ... f em put in a big roundabout because there might be buildings there, there might be erm erm services there that they can't remove etcetera. [407] So it's a temporary measure in many ways. [408] They work quite effectively. [409] But like everything else they'll only work with the cooperations of of the of the er motoring public. [410] So always treat those in exactly the same way as you would a normal roundabout, so that you're coming up and always assuming that people should give way etcetera ... in the manner in which they should unless the roundabout directs otherwise. [411] And erm should you go round them in such a way that erm is ... making it more difficult for you and more difficult for other people? [412] The answer is no. [413] Erm as you say Ian large vehicles, they can't possibly go round them. [414] Erm I do a lot of er large goods vehicle training and if you get erm with a very large vehicle thirty eight tonnes, you cannot, even with an artic which has got a very good ... dogleg to get round, you cannot do it. [415] And therefore you've got to take the shortest route across. [416] And these are just little blips in the road, you know. [417] I'm not talking about those which are built round. [418] But erm they are built in a such a way that they should cater for the largest vehicle that is likely to use that road. [419] So use the normal rules on the approach side for those, I E roundabout rules, but going back onto the signals again, on roundabouts like that don't give unnecessary signals. [420] Erm the point which I don't think I a quite adequately covered, erm Alan mentioned it did you not, in relation to where you give a signal, erm th the h new Highway Code makes a slight variation in relation to where you should ... give the signal when you're exiting on the roundabout. [421] A lot of people are quite clear when they know they're gonna turn left like that. [422] Erm a lot of people aren't so clear when they're going straight ahead. [423] They very often will signal right then signal left. [424] And they're not gonna do that at all, they're going straight ahead. [425] So don't give a signal at all. [426] You're just going straight through. [427] If you give a signal left people'll think you're going there. [428] If you give signal right they'll think you're going there. [429] But ... when you're going to that exit there if you get to that position and you haven't give a sig given a signal, that's the point, just after the junction there at the point of the junction, to give a left-hand indicator signal, mainly for people waiting there. [430] This is the point you meant Alan wasn't it? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[431] Yes. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[432] You're waiting and you're thinking ... Er and this is particularly the case with a large goods vehicle, you'll be sitting waiting to go and there's a lovely gap and you think Can I? [433] And Yes I No I can't. [434] Cos he's given a signal too late, and by the time you start to move there's another vehicle coming round the corner. [435] And of course that's what encourages some of the chaps in the large goods vehicles to use their weight ... er to push their way through. [436] A little bit intimidating isn't it? [437] But you can understand It's not excusable really but you can understand their ... impatience when people c consistently don't tell them what they're going to do. [438] So ... indicate at that point that you're gonna exit there. [439] If you're going all the way round, indicate right. [440] The only time you're gonna indicate right is that position there, when you're going there. [441] Be careful about those sort of junctions. [442] They're not always straight forward. [443] So if you're gonna turn left don't give a signal there, you're gonna turn left in there. [444] You must reserve that signal till you get to that point there. [445] Don't give too many signals on a small roundabout. [446] If you give too many, by the time you go click click, you know they say What was that? [447] It's too late. [448] They don't know what you intend to do and what you've actually done. [449] You must give other drivers, and riders, time to absorb the information that you're giving them. [450] Your signal is the only voice you've got, apart from the horn, is the only voice you've got at telling them what you intend to do. [451] So you must give people time. [452] And if you if they can't absorb the information what's the point in giving the signal in the first place? [453] Now we'll talk a bit more about signals because presently we're going to have a look at a ... a little bit of video which is erm showing commentary. [454] Er I don't know whether you've ever ... er done commentary driving, or heard commentary driving have you? [455] And er the idea is to highlight the things that you feel are pertinent to you and what you're going to do about them. [456] But we'll be coming onto that in about five minutes. [457] Now any other points about any of the other questions? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[458] Stan, can I just turn round the other way what you were talking about there? [459] You said about the the driver giving the left-hand indication as he's about to leave the roundabout. [460] If you're in the situation where you're waiting to come onto the roundabout, you see somebody who's indicated left, you assume they're gonna turn off so you pull onto the roundabout and they're not , |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[461] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[462] [laugh] . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[463] who's in the wrong? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[464] [laughing] You both are. [465] Yeah. [] [466] If y i er when you see that You remember I said don't assume anything? [467] You've been sitting in a side road waiting to come out, and you see a vehicle coming along and it's got its left-hand indicator on and you think Oh lovely! [468] I've been waiting here for ages. [469] It's probably only a ... you know a matter of seconds but it seems a long time. [470] You start to move and he comes he gives you a horn warning swerves around and carries on up the road. [471] Who's in the wrong? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[472] You. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[473] You both are. [474] ... He for i indicating he's gonna turn left when he's not, you for assuming he's going to turn left when he isn't. [475] So you cannot assume anything. [476] You've got to make sure absolutely certain that that vehicles's gonna turn. [477] Wait till you see him start to slow down. [478] See the posture of the vehicle er the man inside the vehicle. [479] Have a look in the vehicle. [480] Don't just look at the vehicle, look at the things attendant to the vehicle. [481] The wheels. [482] How he's got his hands on the wheel. [483] If you're coming along and you see a stationary vehicle, what's the driver doing? [484] Is he looking over his or her shoulder? [485] Or are they fiddling down? [486] Are they likely to open the door? [487] There are so many little bits and pieces that you can ... accommodate in you own mind if ... you want to. [488] You can all do it. [489] We know you can. [490] You can all concentrate. [491] Can you concentrate a hundred percent all the time? [492] ... Anybody here think they can? [493] I'd like to come and shake your hand if you Because there ain't no such animal. [494] You cannot do it. [495] What you've got to do is reserve your concentration for those particular times when it's a ... particular need. [496] And the other times your concentration will drop a little bit. [497] So you've got to learn how to cultivate your ability to summon up the levels that you need when they're particularly needful. [498] Anything else on roundabouts? [499] Cos we've spent an awful lot of [laughing] time on it [] . [500] I don't mind because if you've got the questions we'll we'll certainly spend the time. [501] ... Good. [502] Any other points that erm you want to raise on any of the others then? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[503] I was a little bit surprised at the answer to nine. [504] [...] somewhere that you didn't need your headlights if there was street lighting [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[505] Well ... you see it says a forty mile an hour limit that one. [506] Erm so if it's thirty it doesn't appertain, but erm ... if It does if you're at or near a road junction, even in a thirty. [507] But ha are they enforced now? [508] Ha They're not are they? [509] So therefore people, like yourselves, are understandably quite surprised Oh I didn't realize that. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[510] What is the distance? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[511] I mean if you'd have been reported last week for it you would think Yeah I'm damn sure that's right, you know. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[512] What is the distance away from a from a corner? [513] I mean is there stipulated distance [...] ? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[514] Yes there is. [515] Yes. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[516] What is that distance? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[517] Ten metres. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[518] Cos I ... well I frequently come across [...] insists on parking his car ... less than that distance [...] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[519] Yeah. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) | [...] |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[520] Well yes it is an offence. [521] But the thing is this. [522] Erm the police will only apply their resources to a matter which they feel is appropriate to the need of that particular problem . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[523] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[524] And er the need of this particular problem is unless there's an area whereby there is an accident risk they won't bother with it. [525] They can't deal with everything can they? [526] So therefore erm you've got to be aware of these things and consider the safety implications as we all do. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[527] We've actually got a situation outside where I live where [...] a thirty mile an hour speed limit is erm finishes just in front of some of the houses and of course we've got no access to their the gardens so we just park on the road. [528] So we're parking illegally but the police actually have almo they've said they will turn a blind eye to it if providing that we all do it sensibly and without and face like in the line of the traffic. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[529] Yes. [530] Yes, that's right . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[531] And in fact it's less of a hazard at night ... than |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[532] Mm. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[533] it is in the day. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[534] Yeah probably is. [535] So it's a question of using your common sense. [536] And er you look at the needs of particular area and erm apply er th the rule of thumb to a certain extent. [537] Er I mentioned in the earlier session today about erm a situation that appertained when I was in the police at Maidstone. [538] And erm the majority of people who do this sort of work are ex-police officers and erm that's why w you know we have the training and we can re recall instances of bad driving, that's why we're q quite vehement in our pursuit of safety procedures. [539] Cos you see the results unfortunately of the people who don't follow them. [540] But one of the problems in the Maidstone area was parking on the footpath. [541] Now you might think to yourself Well that's not a big problem. [542] But this particular road was an A t an A road and it was round a very sharp bend up a l a gradient and in a thirty limit. [543] People used to consistently park because they hadn't got ... garages. [544] But round the corner there are side roads. [545] But they would insist on parking on the footpath. [546] So I said to my blokes on several occasions, and they used to think I was a proper pain in the derriere I expect, Go up sort them out, don't necessarily report them, advise them if necessary, if they consistently do it you'll have to use a fixed penalty ticket. [547] It wasn't so much the fact that of parking on the footpath it was the consequences of parking on the footpath. [548] I E you get a blind person come along. [549] Erm you get a a woman with a pram. [550] Now it's a fast road, what have got to do? [551] Knock the bloke up and say Can you come and move your car? [552] Out in the road round the round. [553] One-way street and they come littering round there. [554] Much |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[555] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[556] faster than thirty. [557] Sorry? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[558] Is that Crescent? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[559] Sorry? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[560] Is that Crescent? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[561] [laughing] Yes, that's right. [] [562] You know it do you? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[563] Yeah. [564] They still go through there at [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[565] I know. [566] Well funnily enough I went down there last week, and I must admit I I came round the corner and there was one particular vehicle still does it. [567] And it's a Capri. [568] And it's always parked on the footpath. [569] And there was a traffic warden standing there doing a traffic er doing a fixed penalty ticket. [570] And I must admit I th I I sort of applauded him. [571] Not literally. [572] I thought Thank goodness for that. [573] Now that vehicles's not there any more. [574] But for weeks ... you know it was parked there all day and very often at nighttime. [575] Now he appears to have got the message. [576] I don't want to see people nicked but that was a danger. [577] And erm you know that's sort of a d a difference to yours, |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[578] Mm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[579] where they f they perceive the problem or they don't. [580] Sorry. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[581] Yeah. [582] Can I just ask you, this restrictions is it for forty mile an hour and above, or is it just in the forty mile an hour [...] ? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[583] No, and above. [584] Yeah, yeah. [585] ... Any other points? [586] Quite happy about the two-second rule then? [587] We're gonna deal with that a little bit more in a minute. [588] No queries on that? [589] ... Erm lane markings and divisions. [590] I saw a few sort of puzzled looks when |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[591] Yeah. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[592] we went on to er the red and amber. [593] You probably got some of the others, but it's the red and amber that causes the problems isn't it? [594] You think Is it is the red on the right or is it on the left? [595] Now you might think to yourself Well what the devil difference does it make, whether we know whether it red or amber? [596] Do you think it makes a difference? ... |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[597] What do you reckon Lyndsey? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[598] Probably subconsciously. [599] It's one of those things that you always take for granted till it's obviously taken away from you. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[600] Right. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[601] If they were all the same colour you'd think ... But because you've become so used to seeing the green and ambers and the reds ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[602] Mm. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[603] So wh |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[604] [...] you notice them. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[605] When could it be of particular use to you do you think? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[606] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[607] [...] in fog. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[608] [laughing] Yeah. [] [609] Er in any adverse weather conditions, particularly fog, where you're travelling along and you suddenly see erm a red stud on your right-hand side. [610] Where would you be? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[611] Hard shoulder. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[612] Going down a slip-road. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[613] Hard shoulder. [614] Yes. [615] Somebody said this morning On the wrong side of the carriageway, [laughing] which you probably [] ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[616] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[617] [laughing] you probably would be. [] [618] but you don't suddenly turn round and go the other way do you? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[619] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[620] But fog can come down very quickly. [621] You know you're in a position where everything's hunkydory and all of a sudden you're in a a bank of fog. [622] And you do very quickly lose y lose track of where you are. [623] So it can be very very useful there. [624] So a little knowledge can help you. [625] This question of er lawfully cross or straddle double solid lines. [626] ... Erm to pass a pedal cyclist. [627] Now how many of you here have been in situations where you've been behind a pedal cyclist and you've been tempted, I'll not say you've done it, but you've been tempted to go past? [628] ... Yes? [629] Yeah. [630] Qu I know, I know. [631] You all put your han The thing is, you should never be tempted to do it. [632] It might enter your head Oh Lord! [633] Have I got to sit behind this chap for ages? [634] You can overtake ... on a double white line. [635] What it says is you must not cross or straddle the line. [636] So if you can overtake with safety there's no real problem is there? [637] But can you overtake with safety? [638] Cos when they place these they're always in a zone of danger, double white lines. [639] They're very rigorously enforced. [640] And anybody here with the technical services department they would confirm that. [641] But the main thing you've got to think about is if you start to overtake and the cyclist who may be wearing his er stereophonic Walkman, erm Beethoven's Fifth or some headbanging music going on his Is he aware of you around? [642] Probably not. [643] He might come round a drainhole cover just as you're about to pass him. [644] You either stamp Lucas up his [smacking sound] right buttock or you go over the double white lines, or you brake and somebody behind might be too close behind you. [645] So you can't really take for granted can you that erm he may or may not do anything. [646] How about the milk float? [647] ... The old milkman going down the road reading the paper isn't he? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[648] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[649] Er about five miles an hour. [650] And er what have you got to do in a double white lines system? [651] Got to follow him. [652] Haven't you? [653] Erm ... if it's a hatching it's a little different isn't it? [654] Tha which is you know just an indication. [655] It's not bounded by a solid line but it's just a normal hatching. [656] It's like er a double white line with broken lines on your side. [657] You can overtake if it's safe to do so and you can regain your nearside without danger or or inconvenience to other vehicles coming the other way. [658] But as far as a solid line is concerned ... don't do it, because i it immediately if you if you o do transgress it'll mean penalty points if you're seen doing it, regardless of the consequences of it. [659] Straightaway. [660] It's an endorsable ... moving trac traffic offence. [661] Any other things then on that, before we move onto er pastures new? [662] ... All quite happy? [663] Okay. [664] If you'd like to just pass those along to the end of the line then we'll collect them all up. ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[665] [...] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[666] [shouting] Now you'll recall I said that we will we will try and isolate [] try and isolate throughout the afternoon those things which are going to be useful to you. [667] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[668] [...] the end of the line. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[669] let's talk then about this question of observation and concentration. [670] We're gonna have a little look at the video in a minute, but before we do that I'd like to erm draw you attention to a situation ... This is a real one ... which erm was an accident that took place. [671] Now I'd like you to give me your opinions as to the ... whether is was preventable and whether it was blameworthy. [672] And if it is blameworthy, who is to blame? [673] So I'll I'll give you the scenario. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[674] Excuse me. [675] Before you start on that do you mind if I turn off the flickering television screen? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[676] Well I've left that on because I can't guarantee I'm gonna get me channel zero but |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[677] Could we just turn it a bit perhaps ... into the side? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[678] Erm |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[679] Do you want me to ... push it round? |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[680] Is it really disturbing you? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[681] It is ac I could sit in a different place. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[682] No no, that's alright. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[683] Thank you. [684] That's great. ... |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[685] Sorry about that. [686] ... Even though she was late. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[687] [laugh] . |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[688] Right, here's the scenario then. [689] So thirty mile an hour road and busy day. [690] And er quarter to eight er quarter to nine in the morning, all the commuters are running around half asleep, wish they'd got up a bit earlier but they didn't. [691] Here we have chap who er ... wants to buy a paper. [692] Here ... is a paper shop. [693] He comes along, Oh! [694] A paper shop! [695] Opens his door to get out his paper to get out to get the paper, little boy on bike comes along knocks him off. [696] Didn't see the lad. [697] Should have done he's just overtaken him. [698] But he was selfish, all he was concerned with was going and getting his paper. [699] The little boy. [700] he's about eight, he falls on the ground, he's not really hurt, his legs are tangled up in his bike and he's trying to get up. [701] Now vehicle number one and vehicle number two is following him and vehicle number three is following him. [702] Now you can see that they're fairly close together aren't they. [703] But in between vehicle two and vehicle one there's a reasonable distance, and the distance is in fact ... seventy five feet. [704] So what's the overall stopping distance at thirty miles an hour? ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[705] Seventy five foot. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[706] Seventy five feet. [707] So he should be able to stop this chap. [708] ... And he does. [709] And ... he stops just there, no problems. [710] Number three, he's not very far behind the other chap, same distance when it all happens. [711] Any problem as far as he's concerned? ... |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[712] [...] . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[713] As long as he's got his thinking distance. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[714] Right. [715] So where does he first ... see the problem? |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[716] [...] two brakes. |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[717] [...] his brake lights . |
| Unknown speaker (FM1PSUNK) |
[718] Yeah. |
| Stan (PS1RV) |
[719] That's it. [720] When he he's he's erm ... done his braking. [721] Now the braking, ... bearing in mind It takes you half a second to react anyway, but hi his actual thinking distance is about thirty feet. [722] And the forty five feet is needed for his braking distance giving the overall of ... seventy five. [723] So when he sees that [tape change] |